Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[SteveW]

On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly,
Tell that to any operator of a steam locomotive.

There are massive differences between steam locomotives and
plants that generate electricity using steam.

? Of course they can.
All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to get steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term peaks of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency, and the margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam prime mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of minutes - far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.

Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and turbines
spinning before the large increase in demand, with increased output from
already producing station, pumped storage, gas turbine, diesel, etc. to
fill rapid increases until other producers can be brought online.

 

[SteveW]

On 20/03/2023 18:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/03/2023 09:16, alan_m wrote:
You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at the
dangerous 5GHz.

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK
the government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under
the skin with every Covid vaccination.

Jesus wept. A full blown tinfoil hatter.

I think that he is being sarcastic.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:

On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly,
Tell that to any operator of a steam locomotive.

There are massive differences between steam locomotives and
plants that generate electricity using steam.

? Of course they can.
All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to get steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term peaks of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency, and the margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam prime mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of minutes - far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.

Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and turbines
spinning before the large increase in demand, with increased output from
already producing station, pumped storage, gas turbine, diesel, etc. to
fill rapid increases until other producers can be brought online.

They also have fast startup load following plants ready and waiting.

Hydro is particularly attractive as a load-following plant as you just
basically turn a valve and it starts generating.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 21-Mar-23 7:42 am, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:34:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:39, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
some wind turbines. Wind turbines must have brakes so that they can be
stopped during a strong storm (about 25 m/s) to avoid damaging the
turbine. Of course greenies will complain about stopping renewable
production, but who cares .

We do, because they still get paid to stop generating as if they had
been generating.


In practice, district heating companies are installing electrically
heated boilers to heat district heating water when there is an
overproduction of wind energy and hence the selectivity price drops
towards zero, thus saving on coal/oil/gas/biofuel during
overproduction.

No they are not.

Our local district heating company just installed an electrically
heated boiler to heat water, when the electric prices drops towards
zero due to wind overproduction. The claim is that by doing so, 16,000
tons of emissions are reduced.

In areas with mainly cooling loads, wind and solar overproduction can
be used to cool water in advance for air conditioning.

But no one does

They are simply stupid, if they don\'t.

It is in the wind farm company best interest to avoid electric prices
falling to zero or negative. The wind farm company should try to
\'invent\' ways that their customers could use this overproduction in
some way and get at least a cent or two instead of zero.
.

They should be required to provide the storage systems needed to
compensate for their intermittency. At the moment, they get a free ride
by being able to sell power when they can produce it, and not when they
can\'t.

Sylvia.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 21. marts 2023 kl. 01.20.06 UTC+1 skrev Sylvia Else:

On 21-Mar-23 7:42 am, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:34:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:39, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
some wind turbines. Wind turbines must have brakes so that they can be
stopped during a strong storm (about 25 m/s) to avoid damaging the
turbine. Of course greenies will complain about stopping renewable
production, but who cares .

We do, because they still get paid to stop generating as if they had
been generating.


In practice, district heating companies are installing electrically
heated boilers to heat district heating water when there is an
overproduction of wind energy and hence the selectivity price drops
towards zero, thus saving on coal/oil/gas/biofuel during
overproduction.

No they are not.

Our local district heating company just installed an electrically
heated boiler to heat water, when the electric prices drops towards
zero due to wind overproduction. The claim is that by doing so, 16,000
tons of emissions are reduced.

In areas with mainly cooling loads, wind and solar overproduction can
be used to cool water in advance for air conditioning.

But no one does

They are simply stupid, if they don\'t.

It is in the wind farm company best interest to avoid electric prices
falling to zero or negative. The wind farm company should try to
\'invent\' ways that their customers could use this overproduction in
some way and get at least a cent or two instead of zero.
.
They should be required to provide the storage systems needed to
compensate for their intermittency. At the moment, they get a free ride
by being able to sell power when they can produce it, and not when they
can\'t.

should coalfired powerplants provide backup in case they are down for service?

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:00:53 GMT,
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:09:29 -0400, micky
NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:16:59 +0000, alan_m
junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/03/2023 03:37, micky wrote:

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at the
dangerous 5GHz.

Pointing things out doesn\'t work here. :-(

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK the
government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under the
skin

I should have read further.

Under the skin? Do you mean throught the needle? ROTFLOL.

Pet identfication chips (passive integrated transponders)
are a bit less than 2mm in diameter,
a 12 gauge hypodermic needle has a slightly larger ID.

Either number is much bigger than the needles used for vaccinations.

The \"chjps\" are about
11mm long (1/2\").

Those are id chips and only work if you\'re standing right next to the
machine that reads them. They don\'t do tracking. Alan is repeating
nonsense. Don\'t encourage him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(animal)

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 21-Mar-23 11:39 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 21. marts 2023 kl. 01.20.06 UTC+1 skrev Sylvia Else:
On 21-Mar-23 7:42 am, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:34:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:39, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
some wind turbines. Wind turbines must have brakes so that they can be
stopped during a strong storm (about 25 m/s) to avoid damaging the
turbine. Of course greenies will complain about stopping renewable
production, but who cares .

We do, because they still get paid to stop generating as if they had
been generating.


In practice, district heating companies are installing electrically
heated boilers to heat district heating water when there is an
overproduction of wind energy and hence the selectivity price drops
towards zero, thus saving on coal/oil/gas/biofuel during
overproduction.

No they are not.

Our local district heating company just installed an electrically
heated boiler to heat water, when the electric prices drops towards
zero due to wind overproduction. The claim is that by doing so, 16,000
tons of emissions are reduced.

In areas with mainly cooling loads, wind and solar overproduction can
be used to cool water in advance for air conditioning.

But no one does

They are simply stupid, if they don\'t.

It is in the wind farm company best interest to avoid electric prices
falling to zero or negative. The wind farm company should try to
\'invent\' ways that their customers could use this overproduction in
some way and get at least a cent or two instead of zero.
.
They should be required to provide the storage systems needed to
compensate for their intermittency. At the moment, they get a free ride
by being able to sell power when they can produce it, and not when they
can\'t.

should coalfired powerplants provide backup in case they are down for service?

Their outages are either scheduled, or random, and there is enough
non-intermittent capacity in the system to handle it. They don\'t have
systematic shortfalls of production over huge areas and, in the case of
solar, predictable daily outages.

Solar and wind only get away with their intermittency because of the
structure of the market. No individual in their right mind would
contract with one entity to deliver power when the entity was able, and
then have to contract with another entity to deliver power when then
first entity cannot, because the result would have a higher cost than
contracting with one entity to provide power all the time.

Sylvia

 

[Rod Speed]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:48:18 +1100, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 10:08:03 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:

On 19/03/2023 21:04, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:18:21 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 16:38, John Larkin wrote:
Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk,
but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

Steam ships that used poor quality coal paid for it with greatly
increased maintenance costs, and significantly reduced performance.

I was thinking about \"Residual fuel oil\" like Bunker C, not coal. It
has to be heated to make it liquid enough to pump, and it\'s full of
sulfur and stuff.


Russian high grade fuel for their aircraft mover

https://youtu.be/dY9NVvKrlMQ?t=287

Russia actually runs on vodka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK7l55ZOVIc

Nope, falls over on vodka. Have a look at Yeltsin videos.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 11:54:47 +1100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 20 Mar 2023 22:00:53 GMT,
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:09:29 -0400, micky
NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:16:59 +0000, alan_m
junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/03/2023 03:37, micky wrote:

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but
iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only
for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at
the
dangerous 5GHz.

Pointing things out doesn\'t work here. :-(

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK
the
government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under the
skin

I should have read further.

Under the skin? Do you mean throught the needle? ROTFLOL.

Pet identfication chips (passive integrated transponders)
are a bit less than 2mm in diameter,
a 12 gauge hypodermic needle has a slightly larger ID.

Either number is much bigger than the needles used for vaccinations.

The \"chjps\" are about
11mm long (1/2\").

Those are id chips and only work if you\'re standing right next to the
machine that reads them. They don\'t do tracking.

Alan is repeating
nonsense.

Nope, he was being sarcastic.

Don\'t encourage him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(animal)

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 1:06:33 PM UTC+11, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 21-Mar-23 11:39 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 21. marts 2023 kl. 01.20.06 UTC+1 skrev Sylvia Else:
On 21-Mar-23 7:42 am, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:34:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/03/2023 11:39, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam..com> wrote:

<snip>

should coalfired powerplants provide backup in case they are down for service?


Their outages are either scheduled, or random, and there is enough
non-intermittent capacity in the system to handle it. They don\'t have
systematic shortfalls of production over huge areas and, in the case of
solar, predictable daily outages.

Solar and wind only get away with their intermittency because of the
structure of the market.

Not the whole story. When they are producing power they are lot cheaper than any other alternative source, and even when you have figured in the cost of back-up storage and the over-capacity required to keep it charged they are still the cheapest option, which is why the Australian utility companies won\'t invest in anything else.

> No individual in their right mind would contract with one entity to deliver power when the entity was able, and then have to contract with another entity to deliver power when then first entity cannot, because the result would have a higher cost than contracting with one entity to provide power all the time.

The utility companies are single entities who set up the in-house infrastructure required to let them deliver power all the time from intermittent sources.

It is a soluble technical problem. The fact that we are in transition to getting all our electricity that way isn\'t any kind of argument that we can\'t get there.

--
Bill Sloman, sydney

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:53:54 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

I like birds. I feed a bunch of them twice a day. They prefer Fritos to
anything else we\'ve tried; I\'m sympathetic to that choice. I have one
giantic raven and a one-legged blue jay that will fly and snatch a Frito
out of my hand.

I feed the birds and I also feed some cats of uncertain status. At times
that devolves to feeding birds to the cats. I did rig a pulley system for
the feeder after noting how far a fat cat can leap from the ground when
motivated.

I should try Fritos. Black oil sunflower seeds make a hell of a mess. The
cats get Meow Mix and I think the jays help themselves to that too.

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 16:17:09 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

We feed the birds, too. The rabbits also benefit.

One afternoon I came out and put some banana bread out. I barely had
time to turn around and step away from it before a rabbit dashed out of
cover and started in on it.

A rabbit doesn\'t have much of a life expectancy here. Raccoons however...
I was blaming the deer for destroying the bird feeder until I saw the coon
tracks in the fresh snow one morning. The skunks sort of hibernate but
without a doubt they\'ll be up and about soon to add to the mix.

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 19:15:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well all that happens if you feed birds is you get more birds, and then
they all die of something other than starvation.

That was the upstate NY dynamic. The paper would run photos of deer yarded
up in the deep snow and starving so someone would organize a hay airlift.
Next year, more deer yarded up and starving.

The same dynamic happens with human populations.

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:36:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

This is a sweet rom-com:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Parrots_of_Telegraph_Hill

I\'ve seen the film but missed the rom-com part I guess. Too focused on the
birds to observe the humans.

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 19:04:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Domestic cats may carry 2.4 million dead birds into the house as gifts.
Bit no vcat can catch a bird that is able to fly.,

I\'ve watched a cat kill an unwary robin. Early bird got the worm, cat got
the early bird. Shit happens.

I used to see flickers but I haven\'t seen them lately. While they are
technically woodpeckers they prefer to feed on the ground. I don\'t know if
the cats got them or if they moved to a cat free environment.

They provided me with hours of amusement. They\'re the klutzes of the bird
family and the only bird I\'ve seen that can fall out of a tree.

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:03:18 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:57:38 -0700 (PDT), Anthony William Sloman
bill....@ieee.org> wrote:

Burning fossil carbon would be perfectly fine if you captured the CO2 and dumped it underground.

The greenies object storing spent nuclear fuel underground stating
that it is dangerous for 30,000 to 300,000 years. If CO2 is as
dangerous as they claim, the CO2 will remain dangerous forever, not
just 300,000 years .

Storing gaseous CO2 underground is risky, since if it escapes, it may
kill people living above. CO2 can kill a lot of people as happened in
East Africa when CO2 released from a lake killed whole villages.

Not true; all atmospheric sources are vulcanism, and the billions of years of CO2 emissions
reached a steady state when the output is matched by weathering of rock (creating carbonate
minerals). CO2 in the right kind of rock strata gets chemically absorbed. There\'s
major projects underway now (in Iceland) to implement this with technology instead
of geological time.

 

[alan_m]

On 20/03/2023 21:10, Sam Plusnet wrote:

On 20-Mar-23 19:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Total myth

Domestic cats may carry 2.4 million dead birds into the house  as
gifts. Bit no vcat can catch a bird that is able to fly.,

\"No cat can catch a bird that is able to fly\"?!?

My neighbours cat ambushes birds coming to a bird feeder. As the birds
fly in to perch it pounces jumping three feet in the air and catches
them still in flight.

Pigeons feed on the ground under bird feeders and seem easy prey for
cats although once the area is covered in feathers they become very wary
about landing for a few days. This shows why the old country practice
of protecting crops worked - killing crows and leaving the corpses in
the field. Probably not too effective these days where kites and
buzzards are no longer exterminated and have been re-introduced to
areas. These birds will very quickly spot the dead crow and eat it.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:22:58 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 89-year-old senile Australian
cretin\'s pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Mar 2023 05:30:04 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

I\'ve watched a cat kill an unwary robin. Early bird got the worm, cat got
the early bird. Shit happens.

BRILLIANT phrasing again, our resident bigmouth! <BG>

<FLUSH rest of the inevitable verbose crap unread>

--
More typical idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:
\"It\'s been years since I\'ve been in a fast food burger joint but I used
to like Wendy\'s because they had a salad bar and baked potatoes.\"
MID: <ivdi4gF8btlU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Mar 2023 05:11:41 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> I feed the birds and I also feed some cats of uncertain status.

BUT, above all, you love talking about yourself, you pathological garrulous
senile gossip and bigmouth!

--
Gossiping \"lowbrowwoman\" about herself:
\"Usenet is my blog... I don\'t give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts.\"
MID: <iteioiF60jmU1@mid.individual.net>