Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/03/2023 22:05, boB wrote:

They certainly could. Some are basicall synchronous machines which is
why they spin at one speed, unless they are off and braked.

None are synchronous. Not any more and I cannot recall that any were.
You need a massive step up gearbox or a multipole generator to turn 60
revs a minute into 50 or 60 Hz.

They are all using inverters which is why the grid needs batteries for
frequency stabilisation. Inverters have no spinning mass.

--
\"What do you think about Gay Marriage?\"
\"I don\'t.\"
\"Don\'t what?\"
\"Think about Gay Marriage.\"

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/03/2023 21:04, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 19:18:21 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 16:38, John Larkin wrote:
Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

Steam ships that used poor quality coal paid for it with greatly
increased maintenance costs, and significantly reduced performance.

I was thinking about \"Residual fuel oil\" like Bunker C, not coal. It
has to be heated to make it liquid enough to pump, and it\'s full of
sulfur and stuff.

Yes, but the reason they put it in diesels is that diesels actually are
more efficient than steam turbines

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/2023 00:17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 3/19/2023 7:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 19/03/2023 16:40, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:11:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 19-Mar-23 9:07 am, Bob F wrote:
On 3/18/2023 2:46 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else
sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too
much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra
power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations
they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to
install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green
tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and
can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to
reducing
output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be
used.

Wind farms  will consume power from the grid (when there is
insufficient wind) to:

  1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing is
possible).
  2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into the
direction
     of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating speed
of the
     generator).


3) Kill birds


Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

Coal mines and oil wells kill people not animals. Wind turbines kill both.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/2023 02:16, Sam Plusnet wrote:

On 20-Mar-23 0:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually.
Total myth

Domestic cats may carry 2.4 million dead birds into the house as gifts.
Bit no vcat can catch a bird that is able to fly.,
In realty the annul death toll of hatchlings *has* to be around 90%
for small birds, or we would be treading on them. People in towns never
find the dead ones until, cats bring them in. Out here since I have got
rid of the cats there are dead birds everywhere...or piles of feathers.


Windmills account for

1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

But what windmills kill are protected raptors and bats, because they
generate updraughts and shock pressure waves.

And people. Never parachute into a wind farm.

And the only electricity you can get from a cat is the static type.

Depends on what its treadmill is attached to

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/2023 07:22, alan_m wrote:

On 20/03/2023 06:56, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2023-03-20, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually.  Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

To make that a fair comparison you have to use the figures for kills per
cat and kills per windmill.


Many fewer wind turbines are needed per household than cats.


Is there any need for cats?

In there any need for wind turbines? Of course not. Cats at least are
company. And kill mice. Wind farms simply rob you blind and destabilise
the grid, make houses unsaleable, keep people awake at night , obscure
radar tracking stations, and will leave pollution in the form of
concrete bases behind for thousands of years.



--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

mandag den 20. marts 2023 kl. 19.52.18 UTC+1 skrev The Natural Philosopher:

On 19/03/2023 22:05, boB wrote:
They certainly could. Some are basicall synchronous machines which is
why they spin at one speed, unless they are off and braked.

None are synchronous. Not any more and I cannot recall that any were.
You need a massive step up gearbox or a multipole generator to turn 60
revs a minute into 50 or 60 Hz.

They are all using inverters which is why the grid needs batteries for
frequency stabilisation. Inverters have no spinning mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubly-fed_electric_machine

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/2023 10:50, SteveW wrote:

On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> writes:
On 3/19/2023 7:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 22:31:32 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However,
wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the
grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to
operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be
used.

Wind farms  will consume power from the grid (when there is
insufficient wind) to:

   1) Prevent ice from forming on the blades (where/when freezing
is possible).
   2) Power the mechanism that turns the head of the windmill into
the direction
      of the winds (when less than or greater than the operating
speed of the
      generator).


3) Kill birds


Would be nice to see how many birds are killed versus wildlife (and
people) in digging coal mining and oil wells.

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually.  Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

While I agree that wind turbines probably don\'t kill very many birds,
the cat kill figures are somewhat suspect.

According to the RPSB, over spring and summer (the peak time), cats kill
27 million birds in the UK, a small fraction of the figure you state,
which was, of course, worldwide.

From a recent newspaper report, even that figure may be wildly
exaggerated. The stats were apparently extrapolated from a count carried
out at one location - which was a farm, where the cats were not fed at
all and HAD to live by hunting.

Further, it has been calculated that 2 out of 3 bird deaths are due to
farm cats, feral cats and other unowned cats. Domestic cats are
therefore likely to kill no more than 9 million birds in the UK (and
probably far fewer, due to the distortion of the figures already
mentioned).

Analysis of killed birds has shown that many are already injured or ill.
A proportion are fledglings that failed to fly and would not survive
anyway.

You can imagine my surprise. I found a bird in a quiet country road that
led nowhere, where I lived., It had a ring on,. with a number to call. I
called it.
The woman at the other end kept asking me if a cat had killed it, or if
it had been hit by a car, She refused to believe that it was undamaged,
just dead.

That was wild. I had tow cats, great hunters and killers, but not of
birds. Mice, yes. Water rats, yes. Those were just starters. Main meals
would be bunnies. Or rats. I even saw the older want duelling with a
weasel for ages., He got it. I strapped the corpse to my Irish
neighbours radio aerial. It was weeks befre he noticed. Bit short
sighted. But a lovely man.,


--
\"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing....\"
\"What kind of person is not interested in those things?\"

\"Jeremy Corbyn?\"

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/2023 16:17, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-03-20, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

I like birds. I feed a bunch of them twice a day. They prefer Fritos
to anything else we\'ve tried; I\'m sympathetic to that choice. I have
one giantic raven and a one-legged blue jay that will fly and snatch a
Frito out of my hand.

The tiny little Juncos clean up every spec of food off the deck

We feed the birds, too. The rabbits also benefit.

One afternoon I came out and put some banana bread out. I barely
had time to turn around and step away from it before a rabbit
dashed out of cover and started in on it.

Well all that happens if you feed birds is you get more birds, and then
they all die of something other than starvation.

Its been a tough winter. almost all the wrens will be dead. But the few
that will be left will have huge clutches.
--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

 

[alan_m]

On 20/03/2023 18:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/03/2023 10:44, SteveW wrote:
On 19/03/2023 09:00, alan_m wrote:

Zero extra cost to me for fitting the switch.

Bless! The naivete of people. It all goes on yer bill at the end of the
day.

I\'m aware of that - very much like free postage the cost of which is
built into the selling price in the first place.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:09:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 16:38, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:29:24 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

That idea has probably come from the use of \"barring gear\". When not in
use, some wind turbines are electrically driven and turn slowly, to
prevent semi-permanent sagging of blades or shafts when left stationary
in one position.

Steam turbines on ships (now mostly diesels) engaged a \"turning gear\"
electric motor to slowly rotate things so a hot turbine shaft wouldn\'t
sag.

Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

And those also use street paving quality gunk, preheated to make it liquid.

I am not sure why they switched from steam turbines to diesel, I
wouldn\'t think there was much difference in complexity

Steam plants on ships were amazingly complex. They had feed pumps,
preheaters, fuel pumps, blowers, burners, flame detectors, water-wall
boilers, superheaters, economizers, condensers, multi-stage throttle
valves, reverse steam valves, safety valves, HP and LP turbines with
million-dollar reduction gears, steam powered generators, all kinds of
plumbing. More that I probably can\'t remember. A steamship had a small
chemistry lab that was used to regularly test the water used in the
boilers.

I used to design throttle and boiler control systems for ships, and
they were complex and expensive too.

All that stuff was hard to maintain.

Ah. according to the net it was simply a matter of fuel efficiency.
Diesels use less bitumen

 

[server]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:34:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:39, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
some wind turbines. Wind turbines must have brakes so that they can be
stopped during a strong storm (about 25 m/s) to avoid damaging the
turbine. Of course greenies will complain about stopping renewable
production, but who cares .

We do, because they still get paid to stop generating as if they had
been generating.


In practice, district heating companies are installing electrically
heated boilers to heat district heating water when there is an
overproduction of wind energy and hence the selectivity price drops
towards zero, thus saving on coal/oil/gas/biofuel during
overproduction.

No they are not.

Our local district heating company just installed an electrically
heated boiler to heat water, when the electric prices drops towards
zero due to wind overproduction. The claim is that by doing so, 16,000
tons of emissions are reduced.

In areas with mainly cooling loads, wind and solar overproduction can
be used to cool water in advance for air conditioning.

But no one does

They are simply stupid, if they don\'t.

It is in the wind farm company best interest to avoid electric prices
falling to zero or negative. The wind farm company should try to
\'invent\' ways that their customers could use this overproduction in
some way and get at least a cent or two instead of zero.
..

 

[Sam Plusnet]

On 20-Mar-23 19:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Total myth

Domestic cats may carry 2.4 million dead birds into the house  as gifts.
Bit no vcat can catch a bird that is able to fly.,

\"No cat can catch a bird that is able to fly\"?!?

A flat declaration which is completely false, and most people who know
much about cats will know that.

You don\'t do yourself any favours.



--
Sam Plusnet

 

[Rod Speed]

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

Sylvia Else wrote

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

If the climate activists have their way

They won\'t, anywhere.

there will not be any other source of backup equipment after 2030 to
provide any electricity when the wind doesn\'t blow or the sun doesn\'t
shine.

There seems to be another climate emergency (or whatever its called this
week) conference going on soon. On the early morning news there was an
activist from California and one from the UK spouting off about we have
the technology of Windmills and Solar (nothing else) to replace all
fossil fuel generation by 2030.

Just because some fool claims something...

> In Extinction Rebellion have their way

No chance of that.

there will be no oil to lubricate the moving parts for the windmills, no
oil to make tyres for their bicycles and no tarmac for their cycle lanes.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:22:36 +1100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 20/03/2023 06:56, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2023-03-20, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On 20/03/2023 00:27, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Domestic cats kill 2.4 billion birds annually. Windmills account for
1 in 4000 of the annual total, maybe half a million max.

To make that a fair comparison you have to use the figures for kills
per
cat and kills per windmill.

Many fewer wind turbines are needed per household than cats.


Is there any need for cats?

There is some evidence that pet owners do better health wise.

Whether that is caused by having pets isn\'t clear.

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:09:29 -0400, micky
<NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:16:59 +0000, alan_m
junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/03/2023 03:37, micky wrote:

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at the
dangerous 5GHz.

Pointing things out doesn\'t work here. :-(

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK the
government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under the
skin

I should have read further.

Under the skin? Do you mean throught the needle? ROTFLOL.

> with every Covid vaccination.

They don\'t make tracking devices that small. Don\'t believe what the
crackpots tell you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du8yQeQdMBk

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 08:17:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 89-year-old senile Australian
cretin\'s pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

 

[Bob F]

On 3/19/2023 11:50 PM, alan_m wrote:

On 19/03/2023 23:45, Sylvia Else wrote:

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

If the climate activists have their way there will not be any other
source of backup equipment after 2030 to provide any electricity when
the wind doesn\'t blow or the sun doesn\'t shine.

There seems to be another climate emergency (or whatever its called this
week) conference going on soon. On the early morning news there was an
activist from California and one from the UK spouting off about we have
the technology of Windmills and Solar (nothing else) to replace all
fossil fuel generation by 2030.

In Extinction Rebellion have their way  there will be no oil to
lubricate the moving parts for the windmills, no oil to make tyres for
their bicycles and no tarmac for their cycle lanes.

And the GOP\'ers just want us to burn it all up.

 

[Scott Lurndal]

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 10:09:29 -0400, micky
NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:16:59 +0000, alan_m
junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 19/03/2023 03:37, micky wrote:

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at the
dangerous 5GHz.

Pointing things out doesn\'t work here. :-(

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK the
government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under the
skin

I should have read further.

Under the skin? Do you mean throught the needle? ROTFLOL.

Pet identfication chips (passive integrated transponders)
are a bit less than 2mm in diameter,
a 12 gauge hypodermic needle has a slightly larger ID. The \"chjps\" are about
11mm long (1/2\").


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(animal)

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 08:36:24 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Marland addressing senile Rodent\'s tall stories:
\"Do you really think people believe your stories you come up with to boost
your self esteem.\"
Message-ID: <h88tt7FplhkU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Scott Lurndal]

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:

On 3/19/2023 11:50 PM, alan_m wrote:
On 19/03/2023 23:45, Sylvia Else wrote:

The problem there is that it\'s not economic to have the equipment
required to do that standing around unused waiting for the occasions
when power is available.

If the climate activists have their way there will not be any other
source of backup equipment after 2030 to provide any electricity when
the wind doesn\'t blow or the sun doesn\'t shine.

There seems to be another climate emergency (or whatever its called this
week) conference going on soon. On the early morning news there was an
activist from California and one from the UK spouting off about we have
the technology of Windmills and Solar (nothing else) to replace all
fossil fuel generation by 2030.

In Extinction Rebellion have their way  there will be no oil to
lubricate the moving parts for the windmills, no oil to make tyres for
their bicycles and no tarmac for their cycle lanes.


And the GOP\'ers just want us to burn it all up.

30% of a BBL of crude is used as chemical feedstocks and binders for
aggregate (asphalt/macadam). Those, leaving aside any potential to
contaminate soil or water, do not contribute to the CO2 in the
atmosphere. It\'s the other 70% of the crude, refined into fuels,
that when burned add CO2 to the atmosphere.

Using the limited remaining reserves of crude for the former instead of
burning it up will allow the CO2 fraction in the atmosphere to start dropping and
still provide the chemical feedstocks we need to feed 8 billion humans. Win-Win. Even
the oil companies will still be profitable.

To be carbon neutral doesn\'t necessarily mean that the world cannot use
oil; just not burn more than the natural carbon cycle can remove on
short timescales (e.g annually). Likewise coal. Eventually, of course,
both resources will be exhausted - there\'s no reason not to start the
process of weaning off them now, and rapidly.