Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:10:40 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the TV-watching and
pity-baiting senile \"blind\" mole, blathered again:

I think this highly unlikely. I think turning down is not so easy, since it
is AC, and has to respond to sudden loads. What should happen is that the
loading on most systems will reduce as the generator is easier to turn, but
the frequency remains the same. I do not know what method is used these days
as governors. I\'m sure its probably highly technical and not two weights and
a brake as it used to be on wind up gramophones!
Brainless & Daft

YOU again, you useless, endlessly bullshitting, troll-feeding senile PEST?
You DISGUST me! But you are lucky that most people really keep pitying you!
<BG>

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.

Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
ball park figure.

It\'s always been the case that they had to replace non-smart meters
every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10 years. I
had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it became my
turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
appointment that suited me

And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that
there\'s no good way to store electricity.

Shouldn\'t that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

Smart meters eliminated meter reader people too. Reading a meter could
be a real hassle in many situations. Some utilities only did it a few
times a year and interpolated/extrapolated the monthly bills. At our
cabin in the mountains, the old meters were buried in snow for months.
Now I can ask for a realtime graph of power or gas or water use; we
spotted a water leak that way.

We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!

The long feeder from the street came down, and they fixed that for
free too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6s7l66iq9xy9nt/Fascia_2.jpg?raw=1

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:10:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 10:49, alan_m wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.

Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
ball park figure.

It\'s always been the case that they had to replace non-smart meters
every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10 years. I
had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it became my
turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
appointment that suited me

 And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Shouldn\'t that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and any
feed in tarriffs.

Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are working for
you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It\'s your enemy,
and wants to be your master. Because if it isn\'t it fears you might get
rid of it.

Our regulated private utilities here are excellent. Some towns have
taken over local distribution, so are getting less excellent.

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:14:45 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

> I think

Don\'t, you disgusting, endlessly blathering senile twit! Nothing good will
come of it!

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:31:38 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there\'s no wind. Pity that there\'s no good way to store electricity.

None that John Larkin knows about. Pumped hydroelectric storage has been popular for ages, and grid scale batteries are being installed all over the place, but they don\'t look \"good\" to John Larkin.

The wind blow enough of the time to make windmills a popular investment. but John Larkin can\'t work out how the grid keeps on working when the wind isn\'t blowing at the windmills he can see.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 7:23:16 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:

On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?
Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

No, you speed it on its way. Then the next wind farm downstream can take advantage of it and recover the wind you created. Much more efficient than using wires to transport electricity.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is taking this seriously. On face value, it\'s a silly idea. Dig into even the basic facts and it becomes preposterous.

Typical Commander Kinky stuff.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 7:56:25 AM UTC-4, Jeff Gaines wrote:

On 18/03/2023 in message <tv467v$2f79h$1...@dont-email.me> The Natural
Philosopher wrote:

Shouldn\'t that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and any
feed in tarriffs.

Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are working for
you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It\'s your enemy, and
wants to be your master. Because if it isn\'t it fears you might get rid of
it.
Are you an American? It\'s that sort of argument that makes them feel they
need guns to defend themselves from government (and as a penis substitute
of course).

He\'s not an American. He\'s an IDIOT who happens to have been born in the US. Don\'t try to tell me they don\'t have IDIOTs where you live. Heck, this thread was started by one of the biggest IDIOTs in this forum(s) and is not from the US.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:02:02 -0400, micky mouse, the absolutely idiotic,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered again:


> Sure.

Surely, he is a trolling piece of shit and you are a troll-feeding senile
piece of shit, micky mouse!

 

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:

> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!

No you don\'t. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
by a company overcharging or from taxation



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

Sylvia.

If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:29:24 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

That idea has probably come from the use of \"barring gear\". When not in
use, some wind turbines are electrically driven and turn slowly, to
prevent semi-permanent sagging of blades or shafts when left stationary
in one position.

Steam turbines on ships (now mostly diesels) engaged a \"turning gear\"
electric motor to slowly rotate things so a hot turbine shaft wouldn\'t
sag.

Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

 

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run.

Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
months means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
for not having a meter reader is 120 years

A gas meter will need a new battery in 10 years, or less



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:28:24 +0000, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 07:23:09 -0400
Frank <\"frank \"@frank.net> wrote:

On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much
power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra
power.  Is this really true?  Aren\'t there plenty of power stations
they can just turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to
speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install
smart meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green
tax. Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you
do, pump back wind?

See:
https://www.energy-storage.news/delivering-pumped-hydro-storage-in-the-uk-after-a-three-decade-interlude/

\"Up to days at a time\".

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 9:42:03 AM UTC-7, alan_m wrote:

On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run.
Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
months means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
for not having a meter reader is 120 years

You pay bills once every 12 months? You don\'t count the time for the meter reader to walk to and from the house and to drive from house to house?

 

[Rod Speed]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?
I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
output.

The UK has very litttle coal fired power generation anymore.

And the gas fired power generation is easy to modulate.

> So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible.

Fraid so.

However, wind turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to
the grid frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate
in reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 12:42:03 PM UTC-4, alan_m wrote:

On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run.
Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
months means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
for not having a meter reader is 120 years

It\'s not 30 seconds to read a meter. Try walking from your meter, to your neighbor\'s meter, and to the next, for the block. Many have the meters in the back yard and houses are often far enough apart that the reader has to use a car. I did a paper route, which is even faster and I couldn\'t average 30 seconds per customer.

Why are you talking about 1 reading in 12 months? Here the utilities can estimate bills, but have to read the meter at least six times a year.


> A gas meter will need a new battery in 10 years, or less

I find it surprising they would have batteries. I\'ve seen discussions where it was said they run on utility power... after the point where the meter is measuring the power. So you pay for the power in the meter.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rod Speed]

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

And in the UK that comes from green tax.

Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
new wind farms?

Shouldn\'t that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.

It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

And that is a completely insane thing to do, tax everyone,
pump that money thru the bureaucracy and staight back to
precisely the same people that it came from in the first place.

Only advantage is that in theory it forces people to have
CFL light bulbs which they would otherwise not bother
with and might see some use them given they are \'free\'

We were never actually stupid enough to have a green tax
and our electricity suppliers did hand out free CFL light
bulbs. I ony ever used a couple of the dozens I got given.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 18. marts 2023 kl. 17.38.33 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:29:24 +0000, SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

That idea has probably come from the use of \"barring gear\". When not in
use, some wind turbines are electrically driven and turn slowly, to
prevent semi-permanent sagging of blades or shafts when left stationary
in one position.
Steam turbines on ships (now mostly diesels) engaged a \"turning gear\"
electric motor to slowly rotate things so a hot turbine shaft wouldn\'t
sag.

some jet engines require a minimum low power warm up period after standing
still for a while to let the shaft straighten before it\'s allowed full power

> Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk,

The bunker fuel diesels run on isn\'t much better, but there are now rules on how
bad it can be and in many places close to the coast they need to run on fuel oil (diesel)

but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

and more efficient

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:23:07 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:

We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!

No you don\'t. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
by a company overcharging or from taxation

The LEDs save energy so make everyone\'s costs go down.

We only have a few incandescents left. Either old, very rarely used
bulbs, or one small incandescent on a string of LEDs to make them dim
properly. Some \"dimmable\" LEDs and some dimmers don\'t work together.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:45:24 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:28:24 +0000, Davey <da...@example.invalid
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 07:23:09 -0400
Frank <\"frank \"@frank.net> wrote:
On 3/18/2023 5:39 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

<snip>

Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you
do, pump back wind?

See:
https://www.energy-storage.news/delivering-pumped-hydro-storage-in-the-uk-after-a-three-decade-interlude/

\"Up to days at a time\".

Over the whole area of the UK (which isn\'t all that big) wind turbine output is occasionally low for a few days at a time.

That\'s not why the UK has high voltage links across the Channel to France, across the North see to the Netherlands and a rather longer one further north to Norway. but they do allow geographical averaging as well as temporal averaging.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney